please your help

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fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 29.10.2012 15:15:41

soreng skrev:Visa requirements are based on excatly the same criteria for alot of countries that the immigration test was...What is your nationallity.
The difference lies in the objective reasoning for the discrimination. In the case of visa it is a proven fact, that a much larger percentage of visitors from Afghanistan will apply for asylum than visitors from Australia, and for that reason we decide to not burden australians by having to apply for a visa, since this would nearly always be granted anyway.

But what is the similar reasoning, why a spouse from Brazil must learn to speak danish at an extremely high level (if the more restrictive immigration test had been implemented on 01.01.2013 as planned), before getting a residence permit, but not a spouse from Australia?

Is it more easy for someone from Australia to live in Denmark without speaking danish already before her arrival than someone from Brazil? And if so why? If these questions can be answered saticfactory, then the legislation is not racist. But if they cant, I will maintain as a very strong opinion, that it is.

In extension hereof, I will admit, that if an immigration test was only about acheiving a certain level of knowledge about living in Denmark, then it would not be racist to exempt australian citizens from this. That is because it can be objectively reasoned, that they have less need for this, because Denmark and Australia are pretty similar countries, while the same can not be said with Danmark and e.g. Afghanistan or Somalia.

But the immigration test also requires applicants to learn the danish language, which neither citizens from Australia or Somalia speak in general, and which they both need equally much to learn to live in Denmark. And for that reason it is clearly racist to exempt australian citizens from the demand to learn danish, even before they move here.

The whole point is, that if the main purpose of the immigration test is not to aid integration or other similar legitimate political goals, but rather to make family reunification more diffucult, so there will be less of it in general, then it is clearly racist to exempt some nationalities from the test, because you simply like their culture or whatever better.

fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 29.10.2012 15:26:58

soreng skrev:I would agree it would be racist if the rule was from brazil, AND also being a muslim....But that was not the case.
In any modern and generally accepted interpretation of the word, "racist" refer to discrimanation based on any of the following criteria:

a) race / ethic origin
b) religion
c) national origin

Many right wing extremist want to narrow to use of the word to a), but I see no reason to accept this, as it clearly only is for the purpose of not having their own ideological ideas labeled as "racist".

In the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), there is an article prohibiting discrimination on the basis of several criteria, where all of the above is contained as well as sexual orientation and financial status.

Discrimination bases on such critiria is not absolutly prohibited. But if it interfeer with fundamental rights like the right to family live, it needs to be necessary in a democratic society and be proportional.

And requiring spouses from certain countries to pass an immigration test because moving to Denmark solely for the purpose of changing the marietal preferences of danish citizens away from marrying citizens from these countries, clearly do not live up to these criteria in my opinion.

It is no different at all from saying, that if the spouse is from Australia, applying for family reunification will cost 0 DKK, but if the spouse is from Vietnam, it will cost 1 million DKK.

So I firmly beleive, that the legislation of the provious government was in clear violation of the ban against discrimination in ECHR, and then it is also completely reasonable to label it a racist legislation.

soreng
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af soreng » 29.10.2012 15:30:24

fundiver199 skrev: But what is the similar reasoning, why a spouse from Brazil must learn to speak danish at an extremely high level (if the more restrictive immigration test had been implemented on 01.01.2013 as planned), before getting a residence permit, but not a spouse from Australia?

Is it more easy for someone from Australia to live in Denmark without speaking danish already before her arrival than someone from Brazil? And if so why? If these questions can be answered saticfactory, then the legislation is not racist. But if they cant, I will maintain as a very strong opinion, that it is.
I do not know if you use the Brazil excample because you know my wife is Brazilian, but that does give me a good chance of answering the very specific question. ;-)

It is extremely easy to live and survive in Denmark speaking only English. My wife did that the first 3 out of 4 years she lived in Denmark. On the other hand she also found out that Portuguese is not a very usefull language here in Denmark, so the first time she was here, she set her heart on learning English. She went home, and devoted herself to learning english. One year later she could return to Denmark making a life for herself using only english, and she did that for the next 3-5 years, and she still uses it today, when her knowledge of danish is just not good enough, for the task she has to do.

It is therefore also reasonable to conclude, that you have a better change of integrating in Denmark if you speak a fair english allready when you come. So seen in that perspective it makes good sence that people from english speaking countries does not need to pass a danish test as fast as someone that cannot proofe a very good level of english.

soreng
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af soreng » 29.10.2012 15:35:02

fundiver199 skrev:
In any modern and generally accepted interpretation of the word, "racist" refer to discrimanation based on any of the following criteria:

a) race / ethic origin
b) religion
c) national origin
Fair enough...But that also means that visa regulations, that are also based on nationality, are equally racist (Your item C), despite what reasoning that is behind them, as it is racist to discriminate based on National origin. If you say A you have to say B. :wink:

fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 29.10.2012 15:40:58

soreng skrev:It is therefore also reasonable to conclude, that you have a better change of integrating in Denmark if you speak a fair english allready when you come. So seen in that perspective it makes good sence that people from english speaking countries does not need to pass a danish test as fast as someone that cannot proofe a very good level of english.
I totally agree with that. However the criteria for exemption were not based on language, since e.g. japanese citizens were exempted from the immigration test, while phillipine citizens were not. And the average knowledge of english is far higher in Philippines than in Japan.

The criteria was membership of OECD, which is closely related to average standard of living but has absolutly no connection whatsoever to, which languages people speak. Moreover, if the rationale was language knowledge, then there is absolutly no excuse, why this could not be evaluated on an individual basis, particularly since it was already part of the point system.

And if a relevant objective criteria like language knowledge can be evaluated on an individual basis, it will surely not be in accordance with ECHR to deliberately choose to evaluate in on basis of nationality instead, just because you dont "like" people of certain nationalities.
soreng skrev:Fair enough...But that also means that visa regulations, that are also based on nationality, are equally racist (Your item C), despite what reasoning that is behind them, as it is racist to discriminate based on National origin. If you say A you have to say B.
If the only reason for requiring pakistani citizens to apply for a visa but not australian citizens is, that we dont "like" pakistanis but "like" australians, then it is racist. But if it can be proven, that far more pakistanis than autralians become illegal immigrants, then its not, because then its both proportional and necessary in a democratic society.

soreng
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af soreng » 29.10.2012 15:58:06

Yeah...Some interesting points have been made in this argument,which we can have because we have a democracy, what allows free speech (sorry....I could not help myself). ;-)

We do not disagree on the substance of the wrong of the old law, but only on the usage of the word racist...So lets just finish it here, leaving it as what it is.

We do not agree about the usage of a word, but we do NOT disagree about fact, that the old law was crap, and thank good that it is gone for now. :-)

fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 31.10.2012 16:37:58

Just to round it of, I will admit, that using the word "racist" in a more public debate about this topic would be fairly counter productive to the case of ÆUG, since in many people it would induce the same kind of reaction, that it did in Soreng, thereby completely losing the possibility to get through with the main message, that the law is (was) wrong.

One might philosofy a bit about, what it says about the degree of victory of the extreme right, that current political correctness makes it absolutly impossible to use a word like "racist" in the public debate without thereby losing it completely.

However rather than taking up that fight, it is better to just accept it and essentially say the same thing without using the "forbidden" word. I can not help thinking about an old Monty Python movie, where a person was to be stoned to death for saying the "forbidden" word. After which the person leading the exucution says it himself and ends up getting stoned.

"He said racist, he said racist, he said racist..." :lol:

mh1
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af mh1 » 31.10.2012 20:41:09

One could in many cases use 'biased', 'prejudiced' or 'bigoted', one of which often would be a much more precise description of the rule or whatever it is one wants to label.

I would say that the rule stating that some nations should and other nations should not pass a test in Danish before being allowed to settle is prejudiced or bigoted.
Senest rettet af mh1 01.11.2012 12:04:19, rettet i alt 1 gang.
mh
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fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 01.11.2012 11:17:51

I know that I promised to stop this debate, but I cant help myself, as it is actually a very important one for the whole situation of ÆUG and its nembers :D

The core in a racist way of thinking is, that you judge people not on their individual properties but rather on their belonging to a certain group like ”whites”, ”blacks”, “muslims”, “jews” etc. and then attach some negative properties to that group as a whole.

Being racist is therefore essentially the same as being biased, prejudiced etc. The problem with the word racist is therefore not, that it is “wrong” in a situation like this. The problem is, that it is a very strong value laden statement, and that it was used to liberally in the past. In Denmark 20 years ago, it was quite common to label anyone, who pointed out problems with immigration and wanted a tighter immigration policy, as a “racist”. Which is clearly to abuse the word, since many of these people were and are not racists, and they were actually right in many ways (just look at Voldsmose etc. - enough said). And because the word racist was abused in the past, today even a correct and legitimate use of the word is often received very negatively

But a racist / prejusticed way of thinking is actually a huge problem in current danish immigration policy, since it is strongly centered around the idea, that immigration from “western” countries is “good”, while immigration from “non western” countries is “bad”.

All official statistics in Denmark and therefore also all news stories and all debate is based on the nationality of immigrants, who are then split into “western” and “non-western” countries. And the obvious problem with that is, that it completely ignores the fact, that immigration types from these two groups of countries are not the same. At lot of the immigration from “non-western” countries has been in the form of unskilled work migrants (before 1973) and refugees (mainly after 1983), while these immigration types are almost completely absent from “western” countries.

So when comparing job frequencies, crime rates etc between people from “western” and “non-western” countries, you are comparing apples with oranges and also focusing on something, that is fairly irrelevant for the determination of the proper policies. Because what you can actually do is to change the rules of the greencard scheme or the rules for family reunification, not the rules for “immigration from non-western countries”, since there are no such rules in the first place.

Moreover because the previous government and the Danish Peoples Party (DPP) has been so obsessed with the nationality of immigrants, they have also completely missed out on obtaining the much more relevant data related to different types of immigration.

There are therefore no data showing how e.g. family migrants, skilled workers, unskilled workers or refugees fare in Denmark as groups. And while data for refugees can be estimated, since some nationalities are almost 100% refugees and most others near 0%, the same is not the case with family migrants. And therefore many politicians blindly assume, that family migrants fare poorly in Denmark or have poor future prospects without actually having any data at all to support their assumptions.

This is something, that ÆUG harped on about quite a bit in the hearing this spring about the new rules for family reunification. And while the government was and still is completely unwilling to change the laws in other ways, than was agreed about in the “Tower” before the formation of the government, they actually listened to this.

So from 2013 we should finally get some relevant data, which could then perhaps help to highten the level of the future immigration debate. And hopefully also lessen the risk, that a future majority would want to reintroduce things like the point system or the immigration test, which were both largely based on a number of either false or unproven assumptions, if it was not solely an admission to DPP and its anti-muslim politics.

Another prejustice, which seems to be extremely sticky, even though there is plenty of data to disprove it, is that family migrants are almost solely from Middle East or Arab countries. DPP does not make a secret out of the fact, that it is mainly from these countries, they want less immigration due to cultural and religions issues. But the immigration test, which DPP demanded the introduction of, had a much larger effect on immigration from the far east than the middle east, which makes the whole thing pretty pointless to say the least :D

Psalm12
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af Psalm12 » 02.11.2012 00:06:05

If the Danish government has a problem with immigrants from certain countries, is there some good reason they cannot just limit or prohibit immigration from those countries? Like the American quota system? And how would ÆUG view that?

fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 02.11.2012 06:49:02

It depends what kind of immigration, we are talking about. ÆUG does not have any opinion about, how the rules for labour migration should be. But ÆUG can of course not accept a legislation, where the right to live in your own country with your spouse is depending on the nationality of your spouse. That is after all, what this whole discussion was about.

The american quota system relates to labour migration and family reunification to labour migrants. Not family reunification to american citizens. And therefore it does not interfeer with human rights, since it is not a human right to migrate to another country simply because you like to live and work there.

There are no legal reasons, why Denmark could not adopt a similar system. But the danish politicians do not see work related migration as a problem, no mather what the nationality of the labour migrant or his family, and therefore they dont want to do it.

They only see family migration (danes marrying foreigners) and asylum releted migration as a problem. And yes there are international conventions preventing Denmark from making a law saying, that only refugees from certain countries can get asylum, or that family reunification is only allowed, if the spouse is from certain countries.

And thanks god for that.

Psalm12
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af Psalm12 » 02.11.2012 10:30:09

I think I have posed this question before in this forum, but I'll ask it again since we are discussing this subject. In light of the fact that muslims have openly declared war on Denmark and Europe and the whole free world, what stops the Danish government from prohibiting any kind of immigration of muslims to Denmark? If Islam is the problem, why do they not attack the problem where it is? We know that it is not only a religion but also a political ideology that is incompatible with democracy, on which our countries are founded.

soreng
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af soreng » 02.11.2012 10:47:15

There are international laws prohibiting that. A country are not allowed to discriminate based on religion.

And just because some few mentally disturbed priests (that is 100% my PERSONAL oppinion about those priests), declare war on most of the world in the name of Allah, then that does not mean that Denmark or any other country are in war against muslims. Being muslim (and christian, buddist and whatever relegion), is a thought, an idea, an ideology, state of mind, and being muslim does not mean that you are at war with the free world. Yes there are radical muslims, using violence in the name of Allah. but there are also violent christians using violence in the name of god. Religion does not kill...People kill...
Just as guns does not kill...It it the bullet exiting the barrel at high speed, that kills. ;-)

I know quite a few muslims that i talk to on a regular basic...They have not tried to kill me yet. ;-)

If there is one thing that history has proven then is is that you cannot rage war against an ideology. Nazism is not dead today just because Germany lost the 2. world war.

fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 02.11.2012 13:28:07

Apart from the very good reasons, soreng has quoted, there is also a serious practical obstacle. How do you determine, what religion people have? By asking them? Or how? And if you ask them, how do you know, they are not lying? It reminds me a bit of, when I travel to several south east asian countries. Before passing though immigration control, you need to fill out a form and answer questions such as “do you carry drugs” or “do you carry firearms”. Well if I did, I probably would not answer “yes”, would I? So why even bother to ask me?

To solve the problem, nazi Germany mapped the decent (afstamning) of all german citizens to determine, who were jews, and who were not. And do we really want to go down this path again, even though it would “only” involve non-residents and not residents of Denmark? I think not.

fundiver199
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Re: please your help

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 02.11.2012 13:28:16

Apart from the very good reasons, soreng has quoted, there is also a serious practical obstacle. How do you determine, what religion people have? By asking them? Or how? And if you ask them, how do you know, they are not lying? It reminds me a bit of, when I travel to several south east asian countries. Before passing though immigration control, you need to fill out a form and answer questions such as “do you carry drugs” or “do you carry firearms”. Well if I did, I probably would not answer “yes”, would I? So why even bother to ask me?

To solve the problem, nazi Germany mapped the decent (afstamning) of all german citizens to determine, who were jews, and who were not. And do we really want to go down this path again, even though it would “only” involve non-residents and not residents of Denmark? I think not.

Besvar