Europe + Asia!

[kitkat]

Hey,

I've got some questions/concerns in regards of Pakistan laws, etc.
My fiancee is from Pakistan, and we are working on getting her to Denmark on a tourist-visa and if everything goes as planned, get married and apply for a family-reunification.

Recently, someone raised the concern of her needing a legal guardian to leave the country for longer than 15 days. Is there a work around for this?

What I've had in mind is that, we get married in Denmark, she gets her permit, and sometimes next year, we go to Pakistan and get the legal papers done over there. That was my original plan, but I do not know how well this will work.

Does anyone have any ideas? or pointers?

Thank you!

[mh1]

First and foremost, Pakistan is in the group 'asyllande', which means that your fiance will most likely be denied visa.

For citizens from asylum-countries (countries from which there is risk that the citizen will abuse the visa to seek asylum in a Schengen-country) visa will in general only be given to spouses or persons who have co-habited for at least 18 months with a partner who is now living in Schengen. (or to parents of, or children under 18 of a person living in Schengen.)

Therefore, in order to get your fiance a visa to DK/Schengen you two will need to get married. It can be in Pakistan, or in any other country to which your fiance can travel with or without visa. Once you are married, you as her husband will be the one who gives permission for her to travel (if such permission is required).

By the way - how old is your fiance? Bear in mind that if she is not at least 18 years old, there is a very real risk that she will be denied visa even IF you marry.

[fundiver199]

You might also consider to move to another EU-country than Denmark eg. to Sweden, since most other EU-countries seems to have a less strict visa practice for citizens from Pakistan.

It is true, that in Denmark Pakistan is classified as an "asylum country", when it comes to visa applications. However the number of actual asylum applications from pakistani citizens is quite low, so the explanation for this classification must lie elsewhere.

It you have moved to another EU-country, already before you get married, the subsequent problem about family reunification will then also be solved. Because even if you get married outside Denmark, a visa to visit for 90 days might still be all, that your wife can get, if you need to apply by danish national rules, and you are not in Denmark as a qualified worker or university student.

Please refer to our "vejledning" about "familiesammenføring", which is however only available in danish language.

[mh1]

The advice to move to another EU-country is not so useful, unless kitkat is already a Danish or EU-citizen (in which last case he does not need to move, just to marry). I just jumped to the conclusion that he is not a Danish citizen, since he is writing in English

[kitkat]

I am a Danish Citizen.

I was wondering if it would be possible for my fiancee to fly from Pakistan to Denmark on a travel visa, we could find a mosque and I could convert and we could get married here?

Would this somehow become legal in Pakistan? I know Pakistan only acknowledges the nikah.

[mh1]

It doesn't matter that you are a Danish citizen, your fiance will STILL not be able to get a Schengen-visa to visit you in DK.

If you move to Sweden - a real move, you will have to find at least a room where you really live, and be registered as a resident in Sweden - you will be able to invite her to come to visit you in Sweden. Since her visa will be a Schengen-visa you will be able to go from Sweden to DK to visit your family.

It of course still doesn't solve the problem about whether she will be allowed to leave Pakistan at all.

Why can you not
1) convert
2) go to Pakistan
3) get married there?

If the problem is that you are a secret to her family, then I’m afraid that you are up against more serious problems than how to get her a visa + out of Pakistan.

[kitkat]

It doesn't matter that you are a Danish citizen, your fiance will STILL not be able to get a Schengen-visa to visit you in DK.

If you move to Sweden - a real move, you will have to find at least a room where you really live, and be registered as a resident in Sweden - you will be able to invite her to come to visit you in Sweden. Since her visa will be a Schengen-visa you will be able to go from Sweden to DK to visit your family.

It of course still doesn't solve the problem about whether she will be allowed to leave Pakistan at all.

Why can you not
1) convert
2) go to Pakistan
3) get married there?

If the problem is that you are a secret to her family, then I’m afraid that you are up against more serious problems than how to get her a visa + out of Pakistan.

I am not a secret to her family. There are other concerns as to why I am not going to Pakistan.
There are people who do not like that Christians come over there and marry muslim girls, even if they convert to islam.

I do not have a problem with converting to islam on paper to get married to her.

Would it be possible for us to get married in a Swedish/Danish mosque, and go to a Pakistani Embassy to get things covered in Pakistan aswell?

Thank you!

[kitkat]

I forgot to mention that, her family is willing to come to Europe to get us married.
We just need to find a legal way to do so, so it also covers Pakistani laws, therefore I am asking if we can get married in a Mosque, and goto a Embassy to get Pakistani laws cleared.

[mh1]

Now I'm rather confused - You wrote:
"Recently, someone raised the concern of her needing a legal guardian to leave the country for longer than 15 days. Is there a work around for this?"

Then why is there a problem? Are her parents not her legal guardians?

And why should you have to get married in a mosque, when a marriage ceremony in a Swedish (or Danish if you prefer) municipal office is just as valid? If her parents are OK with you 'converting on paper' - that is: they know that it's a sham conversion, why convert at all? If your wife is not going back to Pakistan after you marry I can't really see why you should jump through those hoops. Since you obviously are not a religious person, the main thing for you must be that your marriage is valid in Europe, so that it will give your future wife the possibility of obtaining family reunion.

[kitkat]

Now I'm rather confused - You wrote:
"Recently, someone raised the concern of her needing a legal guardian to leave the country for longer than 15 days. Is there a work around for this?"

Then why is there a problem? Are her parents not her legal guardians?

The only thing her family wants is for us to be happily married.
Preferrably a marriage that is valid in Pakistan aswell, therefore we must have a nikah (I have to convert to Islam). Hence I am asking about a marriage in an Embassy or at a Mosque which can be accepted at an Embassy of Pakistan and therefore be valid in their country.

She needs a guardian to leave the country, unless she has family/relatives in the country she is going to visit. While this is not a problem if she has her parents with her the first time, but in the event of the reunification being declined, or, she has to go back to Pakistan, and if by then the marriage is not valid in Pakistan, she again needs a guardian.

And why should you have to get married in a mosque, when a marriage ceremony in a Swedish (or Danish if you prefer) municipal office is just as valid? If her parents are OK with you 'converting on paper' - that is: they know that it's a sham conversion, why convert at all? If your wife is not going back to Pakistan after you marry I can't really see why you should jump through those hoops. Since you obviously are not a religious person, the main thing for you must be that your marriage is valid in Europe, so that it will give your future wife the possibility of obtaining family reunion.

Yeah, this would essentially be the easiest way to do it.
But, since she comes from an Islamic Country, where they value traditions and their religion, they want their marriage to be valid in their country aswell. Also that she'd like the option of going back there to visit family without worrying about any problems that might arise for not legally being married in her own country and what not.

I guess I could call the Pakistan Embassy in Copenhagen and see if they do nikah's there, and/or if we can perform a nikah at a mosque, and having it legalized by the Pakistani Authorities via the Embassy in Copenhagen.

[mh1]

Nikah is just another word for marriage.

The only extra requirement for a nikah to be valid according to Islamic law is that the man is Muslim and the woman Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Actually the presence of an imam is not required according to Islamic law (which is one of my fields of expertise as a lawyer). Likewise, in Islamic countries a marriage VERY rarely takes place in a mosque. Most marriages are contracted in the home of the bride. The all-important thing is the CONTRACT between the man and the woman, stating that they wish to be married to one another.

In Turkey a religious ceremony has absolutely no value, whichever religion the parties may have. Just as in France and several other countries in Europe, the only valid marriage is the one contracted in a public office, with the presence of a marriage official. AFTER this ceremony the couple can choose to go through a religious ceremony as well.

IF you convert, marry in a public office either in Sweden or DK, then you can go to whichever imam you can find, and get him to perform a religious ceremony and supply you with an Islamic marriage contract. You would then be validly married in both systems.

And I still can't see your problem vs. the 'legal guardian' - if your wife should not be granted family reunion and therefore has to return to Pakistan, will her parents not be there? IF her marriage is valid by Pakistani law (which it will most likely be), YOU will be considered her guardian. If it should not be, then her parents will be considered her guardians.

[fundiver199]

As I explained already, as a general rule, it is not possible for a pakistani citizen to get a schengen visa for the purpose of visiting a boyfriend or fiancee in Denmark. So it seems to me, that the wedding plans must be changed for that reason alone, and that the other worries are therefore irrelevant?

[mh1]

It might be a possibility for your fiancé to get visa for Turkey, so you can meet in Istanbul and get married there. After the official marriage you can probably easily find an imam who will perform a religious ceremony.

I know of a Danish girl who got married to her Syrian fiancé in Istanbul, so it 'has been done'.

Pakistani citizens need to show that they have 50 US$/day/person, and show that they have reserved accommodation and have a return ticket, in order to get visa for Turkey.

After you marry, your wife can go back to Pakistan with her parents and apply for family reunion with you, either at the Danish embassy or the Swedish, if you choose to move to Sweden.

[kitkat]

As I explained already, as a general rule, it is not possible for a pakistani citizen to get a schengen visa for the purpose of visiting a boyfriend or fiancee in Denmark. So it seems to me, that the wedding plans must be changed for that reason alone, and that the other worries are therefore irrelevant?

What are you basing this on again?

[Henrik S]

Kitkat, you can read about it here:
http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_t ... visits.htm

Pakistan is considered a country with high risk of people seeking residence permit or asylum, and is thus placed in a group of countries with special restrictions for visits.

Only if you are married already, or can prove you lived together for 1 1/2 year, can she be grated a tourist visa for Denmark.

Regards from Henrik