Return to Denmark from Sweden_Is visa reuired

[kardelen]

Good afternoon,

First of all thank you for a wonderful and extremely useful site/forum and precious advise and help you give to so many people.

I would like to request for your kind advise and clarification regarding procedure of applying for family reunification under EU Rules in Denmark.

I am citizen of Kazakhstan and my husband is Danish. He lives in Sweden from July 2011.

In August 2011 we submitted application to Swedish Migration Board for family reunification under EU rules. They issued a receipt which allows my valid stay in Sweden during case processing time. From January 2012 I live together with my husband in Malmo.

Despite of our numerous calls and e-mails my case is apparently was not reached by our case officer during almost 12 months. However since we kindly asked her to possibly look into our case she already asked us for S1 Health insurance which we are not able to provide due to reasons already discussed in this forum. Last time I spoke with my case officer about 1.5 month ago and she told that she is going on leave and does not know whether the decision would be made in any foreseeable future. She also advised that my case might be rejected because I cannot present S1 form and that provate insurance is not a solution.

In January I was also refused in issue of Swedish registration number because I could not provide them with S-1 form.

Having all this in mind my husband and I decided to come back to Denmark in September. Last week we mailed the application for family reunification under EU Rules to the Danish Immigration.
Today I called Danish immigration and was told that my application was received and would be registered within 4-6 weeks than I would receive letter from them.

Meanwhile if I would like to enter Denmark together with my husband before the decision on my case is made I would need to receive Danish tourist visa which would allow my valid stay in Denmark.
Therefore I would need to apply for it in Stockholm. I was also advised that if I would like to apply for Danish visa in Sweden before that I would need to cancel my application for family
Reunification under EU rules because two applications cannot be handled at the same time. Alternatively I may stay in Sweden before the decision is made.

Unfortunately few month earlier when my husband inquired Danish Immigration about the procedure on the phone he was not informed about visa requirement and was told that without having Swedish permit I could still enter Denmark if we apply for family Reunification under EU rules before moving and once my case is registered I can move into the country.
He was told that once we move into Denmark we would need to inform Danish immigration about our new address and Immigration would issue the documents
which would allow me to stay in country during case processing time.

Now we are absolutely confused because we already rented flat in Denmark, paid deposit and are getting ready to move. Our currect lease in Malmo is ending in the end of this month so all my hopes were about being able to move back to Denmark after a year of waiting for a Swedish permit.

Before I proceed with cancelling my current application for residence permit under ER rules and applying for visa I would like to reconfirm whether the information obtained
by me today regarding requirement for visa to enter Denmark in my case is correct.

I would highly appreciate your advice on how we can proceed now.

Thank you very much for your help and have a good day.

Svetlana

[fundiver199]

Just forget all this bla bla bla about visa requirement and move to Denmark. You application for danish residence card has already been received and can not be rejected, just because you cross an internal border in Schengen without a valid visa or residence card.

At some point enough must be enough, and the story you tell is really enough already. You have been driven around the cirkus arene by bureaukrats in boths countrys ever since your arrival. And since you have a right to stay here under EU-law and don`t need to ask anyone for permission, there is no need to accept this any more.

If danish authorities consider your lack of a swedish recidence card to be a problem, just refer them to direct their complaint at Migrationsverket, which have failed to comply with their obligation to issue this within 6 month. Then the two agencies can discuss this with each other.

Another forum member has a husband, who entered Denmark without a valid visa in the same situation as yours. And he has even been allowed to apply for family reunification under danish rules, because his still pending EU-application is considered to be enough proof of "legal residence" in Denmark.

[kardelen]

Thank you for a swift reply. Earlier I wrote e-mail to Danish immigration requesting to reconfirm whether requirement about visa is strict (probably I should not done that taking into consideration your reply). I am currently waiting to hear back from them.

Today Danish immigration told that they cannot even accept my application if I have no visa for valid stay in Denmark. By them I cannot even come and hand it it in person without having visa for Denmark.

The thing is that we mailed itapplicaiton and currently it is not registered, we might not receive registration proof for 4-6 weeks as I was told today.

My fear is that if I move to Denmark and my application would not yet be registered by than (officially accepted by Immigration) they might reject it later based on the fact that I did not give them valid visa to enter Denmark. Besides they may use it against me that I am illegally in the country and it may jeopardise my whole future.

In our application we explained that we are going to move in September and provided our Danish Lease as proof. As well as they can see that Swedish lease is till August. So they might question where I was during case processing time.

I just want to be 100% sure that this is a requirement for me to have Danish visa to go on with moving to DK and processing of my application.

If there are any legal ways I can avoid this at current stage I would appreciate advise.

[fundiver199]

Frankly you are asking to many questions to the wrong people. Its a bit like if you write an email to the police and tell them, that you intend to drive 100 km/h at an empty highway in dry conditions very early in the morning, and would that be ok? What kind of answers do you expect to get to such questions, if you forward them to the police?

So just move here and don`t worry so much. Numerous people have done the same thing before you, and even illegal immigrants - which you are really not - also have a right to residence after EU-rules, if the conditions are met. Like the EU-court stated in the Metock case.

And the EU-court has also specifically stated in another case, that the member states are not allowed to expel union citizens or their familý members due to some lack of papers. They need to give them a reasonable chance to obtain those papers first.

And pleeeeease lets be a bit realistic now. The visa requirement is supposed to control people crossing the outer schengen border, not internal borders in Schengen. So who the f... cares, that your visa has expired, when you move from one place in Schengen to another? There is no control at the border anyway, and hence also no need for or relevance of a visa.

If you were a dangerous terrorist, you would not have been allowed to enter the Schengen area at all, so the necessary control has already been carried out. And the issuance of yet another visa, for the purpose of crossing an internal border with no control, is frankly just a complete waste of everybodys time.

[kardelen]

Thank you very much for your quick reply and advice.

[mh1]

Just a question without any relevance: does 'kardelen' mean 'snowdrop' (vintergæk) in Kazakh too? (like in Turkish Turkish)

[DBS]

If you contact immigrations, regarding EU law, then please use this number:

http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/contact/ ... otline.htm

Any other department, don´t know so much about EU law, and you will probaly get wrong answers.

DBS

[fundiver199]

You are welcome. And just to make it perfectly clear, so there can be no misunderstanding:

Houndreds or maybe thousinds of foreigners with danish spouses have crossed the border from Denmark to Sweden or vise/versa with an expired schengen visa for the past 10 years for the purpose or relocating from one country to the other.

And to the best knowledge of ÆUG not a single one has been put to jail, been expelled or had his/her live ruined because of this "crime". After all both Denmark and Sweden are civilized societies, and we also don`t have death sentence for parking your car in the wrong place for 5 minutes. Maybe you can get a 500 DKK fine for that, but thats all

[kardelen]

Thank you for that encouragement, it was needed

I could not find any reference to visa requirement at New to Denmark website section for family reunification under EU law either.
Final reconfirmation - do I still need paper from Danish immigration saying that my case was registered before I cross the boarder?

I have one more question.
Am I allowed to work in Denmark once my application is registered and is in process? Again, some people in immigration say that I am allowed to work in principle providing that later my case is not rejected in future. Others firmly ensure that I am NOT allowed to work during case processing time. Swedish Immigration says I can work and their site says so, but how can you work without Swedish registration number. All this information sources are quite contradictive.

Would I be able to apply for Danish registration number once my case is registered in Immigration or I need to wait for decision?

Thank you very much in advance

[kardelen]

If you contact immigrations, regarding EU law, then please use this number:

http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/contact/ ... otline.htm

Any other department, don´t know so much about EU law, and you will probaly get wrong answers.

DBS

Thank you! I think that was my mistake. EU hotline was not working today, but I will call them on Monday.

[kardelen]

Just a question without any relevance: does 'kardelen' mean 'snowdrop' (vintergæk) in Kazakh too? (like in Turkish Turkish)

He-he No, I acquired it from Turkish language and I like it, so I use it as a nickname But meaning seems not to be a mistery anymore

[skaanebo]

Final reconfirmation - do I still need paper from Danish immigration saying that my case was registered before I cross the boarder?

The paper will not legalize crossing the border so the question is irrelevant. You cross the border and that's it.

If you worry so much about technicalities and want to do everything by the book, apply for the visa at the Danish embassy in Stockholm. It won't interfere with any current application under EU law.

Am I allowed to work in Denmark once my application is registered and is in process? Again, some people in immigration say that I am allowed to work in principle providing that later my case is not rejected in future. Others firmly ensure that I am NOT allowed to work during case processing time. Swedish Immigration says I can work and their site says so, but how can you work without Swedish registration number. All this information sources are quite contradictive.

Would I be able to apply for Danish registration number once my case is registered in Immigration or I need to wait for decision?

You need to talk with authorities who know about EU regulations and not just anyone. If you ask somebody without the proper knowledge they will give you answers in relation to Danish immigration laws and not according to EU laws. And under Danish laws you're not allowed to work while your application is still pending. But under EU law, you are allowed to work just as it says on the Swedish web site. The problem is to get around it practically since you will not be able to obtain a tax registration number until you actually have a residence card.

[kardelen]

thank you very much, this is very helpful

[fundiver199]

The problem is, that only 23 of the 27 EU-countries are part of Schengen. And therefore the existence of Schengen has not been taken into account in the Free Movement Directive.

The requirement is, that you must hold a valid visa, when you "enter". And in the case of the 23 EU-countries (plus some EØS countries like Norway), who are part of Schengen, the only meaningsfull interpretation of that is, that you must hold a valid visa when you enter Schengen.

And hence you have already fulfilled that demand a very long time ago. This is not, what the text of the directive say, but it is the only interpretation, that makes sence in real life.

If you were relocating to UK, you would obviously need a visa, because otherwise they would stop you at the border and not let you in. Simple as that. And also the UK has not had a chance to evaluate, if you pose a danger to public safety.

However Denmark has had such a chance already via our participation in Schengen and the exchange of information (SIS and Schengen hearings), which is an important part thereof. So neither you nor danish authorities have any real need for the processing of yet another visa application for an area, which you are already inside.

But like Skaanebo say, if you are so obsessed with formalities, then for Petes sake go to the danish embassy in Stockholm and try to convince them to give you a visa

[kardelen]

[/quote]
But under EU law, you are allowed to work just as it says on the Swedish web site. The problem is to get around it practically since you will not be able to obtain a tax registration number until you actually have a residence card.[/quote]

Hello again,

I have one more question with regard to right to work for spouse from non-EU country...

Lets assume I would be able to find work without tax registration number (in organization not liable to national taxation) upon return to Denmark from Sweden with my husband and as I understand I would be allowed to work right after my application for family reunification under EU rules is accepted by Danish Immigration.

Is there any documentary proof (I could not find refenrence in the Directive) I can provide to prospect employer saying that if I applied for family reunificaiton under EU rules I am allowed to work in Denmark during case processing?

If my application is rejected and I appleal without leaving the country would I still retain this right to work during review of my appelation?

Thank you for advise and for the great job you do! It is much appreciated