SU problem/giving back

[twister7259]

Unfortunately, i am not a member of the trade union, most probably the membership will be effective. So it can take a half a year time for them to deal with a case, but looking into another perspective - applying for permament residence permit (only 2 years left for me) there should not be any debts to the government(public,private) - and in the worst case scenario if i will got to pay that back..i will need then to pay it immediately,or asap, because if i will be delaying and wasting the time - authorities will not give me a permament residence permit,right?

[fundiver199]

I have looked a bit at some of the rulings already, and they confirm the muddy nature of your case. It was established all the way back in 1985, that a part time job, which you can not fully live from, still makes you a worker, as long as it is not marginal. The person in question was working 12 hours pr. week at a low but regulated standard salary.

Then there was a much more recent case in 2014, where a person was working even less, only 5,5 hours pr. week, but still at a regulated standard salary. Here the EU-court said, that she might still be a worker, if the national court took the nature of her employment into consideration. This is why, they are looking at the length of employment (for her it was 4 years at the same employer), right to vacation and pension and so on.

Your case fall somewhere in between, since you work 12 hours pr. week but not at a regulated standard salary. So you are not clearly covered by the ruling from 1985. You can also not draw much support from the ruling from 2014, because no circumstances about your employment count to your benefit. It has been very short, there is no pension, probably not even an agreement about a fixed number of hours, and so on.

On the other hand your monthly earnings are actually higher than in both those cases. And in reality all the EU-court has ever stated clearly, is, that you might still be a worker, even though you can not completely sustain yourself financially from your work.

Back in 1985 this was the limitation, that some governments including the danish were arguing for. They did not get their way with this. But unfortunately it has left the situation a bit blurred, since the EU-court has been unwilling to provide much guideline about, what can THEN be considered a marginal supplement to some other source of income.

ÆUGs recommendation has always been at least 10-12 hours pr. week at a standard salary. And I think your case illustrate, that this is still a sound recommendation. If the hourly salary is lower than standard, as in your case, the number of weekly working hours need to be expanded proportionately to be on the safe side.

This is also, what you should aim at, if you want to become a “worker” again and thereby regain the right to SU pointing forward.

[skaanebo]

If you have to pay back money to the government, you can usually make an agreement on paying it back over a period of time, say like 200 or 500 kr. every month. As long as you follow that plan, the debt will not be considered overdue.

[fundiver199]

About permanent residenceship, you are confusing the danish rules for EU-rules. For you (EU-rules) the only requirement is 5 years of legal residence as a student, worker or self sufficient person.

[mh1]

Your case may well have been selected to test the definition of 'worker' - it seems you have enough hours/month, so the problem is how much you have been earning.

For a self-employed it was decided that an average income of about 5.000 DKK/month was enough (without specifying how much less would not be ...). They may want to make the definition for 'marginal' at about that also for a worker.

I agree with fundiver that you should complain.

[fundiver199]

This is how, I see it also. 43 hours pr. month at an overenskomstmæssig salary of approximately 115 kroner pr. hour is around 5.000 kroner pr. month. So obviously they are trying to put the definition of marginal somewhere slightly below that amount without specifying exactly how much lower. But not as low as 3.250 apparently.

As I see it, if a salary of 65 kroner is completely unusual in Denmark, they might have sort of a point or chance here, as long as they follow the ruling from 2014 and also look individually at the length of employment etc.

However if a growing number of people from eg. Eastern Europe are actually working in Denmark for this sort of salary in areas not covered by an overenskomst, then they are on quite shaky grounds, since the definition of, what is a "normal" hourly salary in Denmark then has to be revised downwards. And then an employment like this would fall under the old ruling from 1985.

Just because more people in Denmark and other countries in western Europe recieve ridiculously low wages for their work, than was the case 30 years ago, does not make their work marginal. If Danish authorities really want to win this fight in the long run, they will in my opinion need to introduce a minimum hourly salary by law, which Denmark does not have today.

[mh1]

The current welfare check is 6.992 DKK/months for single persons, but it is not so long ago - in 2013 - that the current government had thoughts about reducing this to about 5.700/month for young, single persons.

In the light of this it is really difficult to argue that an income of about half of the total welfare check (and significantly more than half of the proposed reduced check) is a 'marginal' income'. That is what I would put in a complaint.

[twister7259]

Well, but what if in the complaint letter i will include the payslips of other people (that have been working in that place as well) - but i think they have been getting SU when their wage reached about 80 dkk/hour - interesting fact, in that restaurant people start with 65 dkk, which can(but not obviously) be increased to 70-75-80 dkk/per hours after some time (can take up to one year...) - will that addition of others payslips be useful?(showing that i am not the ´´chosen one´´ guy with that low wage, that can not be real or legal). And the other point - hopefully that will not set them up and bring problems to their life..as much as to mine.

[twister7259]

And in addition..my status should be a student,not a worker,isn't it? so probably authorities started to mix both statuses that is causing misunderstandings with that marginal income(that of course my salary comparing to ´´worker´´ is low, but as a student - it seems to be fine,at least i can live with that and not becoming homeless)

[fundiver199]

The point is, that in order to be entitled to SU, before you have stayed 5 years in Denmark, you need to be a worker or a family member of a worker. Until about 1 year ago Denmark said, that if your main purpose to stay in Denmark was to study, then you were a student, even though you also worked at the same time.

This was overruled however by the EU-Court, so now you can be a worker, even though you also study at the same time, and being a worker entitles you to SU. This meant, that significantly more EU-citizens could receive SU, so the decision in your case is an attempt to limit this extra expense by a relatively strict intrepratation of, what a "marginal" income is.

As mh stated, your main reasoning in your complaint should be, that you work 12 hours pr. week or more, like in the case from 1985, and that your income of 3.250 kroner pr. month is not completely marginal compared to the lowest social benefit in Denmark, which is now "unge kontanthjælp" for people below 25 years of age without children.

It is probably easier for someone else with knowledge of Danish law and EU-law to formulate this, and we are still willing to help you at ÆUG councelling. Otherwise I will suggest you to get a lawyer to help with the letter, because you need at least some legal knowledge to be able to write in a way, so they dont just sweep it of the table without even considering your reasoning.

This is NOT a case, you can handle yourself without some kind of professional or at least semi professional assistance.

There are also offices around Denmark with "gratis retshjælp", if you prefer to use their assistance instead.

[twister7259]

I am very grateful for your answers (both mh and fundiver199).
And i am willing to get a help in making a professional complaint letter.Should we continue to speak in private,or that will be better to make it open? (since i am actually willing to make my case helpful for anyone else,who will face the same situation in the future). So i will send my payslips to your e-mail..as i said i have no contract..and what else can i include? maybe for reasoning letter include some other´s payslips with the same salary ?(because i´ve got some people who are able to help and provide payslips).Also the letter itself(that i received nearly week ago) that i have got will be also useful..

[fundiver199]

If you want ÆUG councelling to assist with the letter, it is better to continue the discussion there.

[twister7259]

Ok,it will be relevant, i have sent it to your e-mail

[twister7259]

And by the way, what if i will write my story to the Danish newspapers...can i get anything from that..like support...? probably SU will be very pissed, and it will be better to stay anonymous?
.

[mh1]

It may bring out comments from others in the same situation - but as it is actually not popular in the Danish society that Danish old people, young children, handicapped people, war veterans etc. cannot get the help they desperately need because of cut-downs, I don't think you would get much support for your case. In the end, money for SU comes from the Danish taxpayers, who may feel that Danish tax-money should go to Danish people first and foremost.