Debate on Welfare

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outoforbit
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Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af outoforbit » 26.11.2010 12:53:09

Hi again!

This is more of a hypothetical question rather than a practical one.

I have a friend in my Danish language class. We are both here under EU-rules. The difference is that my spouse worked abroad in the EU, while his was a student.

We have been debating whether we *could* take welfare, should we wanted to, based on various sources. We haven't come to an agreement yet.

My question is, can a non-EU citizen with EU-5-year residence receive welfare from the commune should he need to?

Does it make a difference whether the danish spouse was abroad as a worker or as a student?

Within my friend's application there was a clause that stated that the danish national had to support the spouse, but just this or last week, he received a new letter saying that the conditions of his residence have changed - and now he might be able to receive welfare?

I'm not encouraging people to take welfare unless absolutely necessary or critical. But it would be nice to know our "rights" in Denmark, as the authorities are very vague on this.

Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge on this topic. I know that it may be tough to answer this one with the scarce information here.

Thanks again!

Kim P. Nyberg
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af Kim P. Nyberg » 26.11.2010 17:12:50

Both EUcitizens and non-EU-citizens who are here according the EU-regulations, can receive social welfare, just like any Dane. Unfortunately, the Danish administration read the regulations as strickt as possible, which means, that if you go to kommunen and ask for social welfare, you might loss your right to stay in Denmark.

The EU Court of Justice has said, that the member states has to evaluate in a way, so only if you are a heavily burden for the country, you can be expelled. Denmark's administration consider you a heavily burden, when you have received social welfare for just a few month.

Not so long time ago, the press was full of stories about The Nordic Council, who was extremely angry towards Denmark. Many years ago, the Nordic countries (Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark) makes a common convention, stating special rights to move, to settle, to work and live in one of the other member states of the Nordic area. It even tell, that if you get unemployed and need social welfare, you will receive that on the very same conditions as the citizens of the host country. But Denmark read the convention as narrow as they can, so actually citizens from the other Nordic countries, who live here, and who have asked their kommune for social welfare, got a demanding letter: You have been asking for social welfare, you are therefore obligated to leave Denmark with XX days.

So, you have the rights, but Denmarks administration will not allow you to use these rights.
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outoforbit
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af outoforbit » 26.11.2010 17:30:59

Thanks Kim.

Would the situation change if the foreigner begins to work full time for, say, a year, and then losses his/her job?

outoforbit
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af outoforbit » 26.11.2010 17:38:37

Furthermore, if the rules keep getting stricter and stricter so Denmark can protect its welfare system by getting less needy immigratnts, what difference does it make since those that come in can't use it anyway?

Those that have been coming through National Law, have the bank collateral, so any social costs will be deducted from there. Those under EU-rules, will become a "burden" and therefore expelled.

Unless there is more than just protection of Welfare (perhaps integration, ghetto break-up, etc), what motive is behind the new stricter laws?

and I really mean.. what's the REAL motive behind them?
Senest rettet af outoforbit 26.11.2010 18:49:16, rettet i alt 1 gang.

Kim P. Nyberg
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af Kim P. Nyberg » 26.11.2010 18:46:42

No, it does not make any difference how long they have been here and worked here. If they go on kommune just once, the alarm bell instantly sets off.

Well, I think the REAL reason of all this, is that Dansk Folkeparti do not like foreigners, so they do whatever possible to hinder their rights to be fullfilled. Slowly, but very efficiantly, they maked the Danes understood, that foreigners are a "problem" to "the Danish native understanding". DF actually maked up a lot of stories about the "problems". The latest is the story telling about all the Muslims, who eat all the cakes and drink all the juice in the waiting rooms at doctors and hospitals. One journalist was clever to ask for an example. DF replied, that Køge Hospital's Labour Room had to take away the cakes and juice just few years ago because of the Muslim "eat-and-run". Doctor's at the hospital heard that, and could tell, that the hospital have had no Labour Room for the last 20 years................

Now, Socialdemokraterne (Labour Party) was very quick to accuse DF for making up false stories, just in order to capture Danes, who are naive to believe in this kind of stories, and in order to capture as many votes at next election as possible. Since then, DF has been completely silent about this story. And a group of facebook users sent 200-300 cakes to DF organisation office.

DF has very effectively used their influence upon the government. They use a strategy where the point is, that if the government got an idea, DF will support if, but only if the government will support DF's ideas.
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outoforbit
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af outoforbit » 26.11.2010 19:13:54

This theme really frustrates me. It is, of course, none of my business -yet- how the danish goverment decides to guard their cultural and material riches, whatever those are considered to be. But when their decisions come in between families, danish people meeting foreigners and falling in love, making it hard for their own very people to sustain basic mores such as marriage and family... that really tickles my spleen. :?

(but hey, what's love got to do with politics anyway)

thanks for the information Kim...

fundiver199
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 27.11.2010 11:05:21

These rules are quite complicated but here in an overwiev of them:

An EU-worker and his family can not be expelled. I.e. a german citizen and his spouse from thailand living in Denmark. To be recognised as a worker the EU-citizen must:

a) Have worked for more than 12 month, before you became unemployed and be available for the job market i.e. look actively for a new job.

or:

b) Have worked for at least 8-10 weeks and find a new job within no more than 6 month.

A student or a person with "sufficient means" must not become an "unreasonable burden" for the social system.

Eksample 1: A polish construction worker work for 7 month at a danish construction site and is then laid off due to lack of work. He can now receive social benefit (bistandshjælp) for 6 month, if he fullfill the general requirements i.e. his spouse also has no income and he does not have any money in the bank. His spouse from Thailand can also receice social benefit. After 6 month the cupple might be asked to leave the country, if he did not succeed in finding a new job.

Eksample 2: A frensh engineer work for 13 month at a danish pharmaceutical company and is then laid of, because the company goes bankrupt. He can now receive money from a danish "A-kasse" for two years, if he ensured himself in a A-kasse. If he did not do this, he can recieve social benefit (bistandshjælp), if his family fullfill the general requirements. This right he has indefinitly, as long as he is available for the danish jobmarket i.e. looking actively for a job. He and his spouse can not be expelled, even if he recieve social benefit for e.g. 3 years before finding a new job.

Eksample 3: A british freelance writer move to Denmark with his british spouse. They live from his income, which derives from articles published in british and american journals. After 3 years in Denmark he is no longer successfull is selling his articles to britsh and american journals, and they apply for social benefit. The danish authorities must now evaluate the chances, that the cupple become self supporting again, before deciding, weather or not they should be expelled. In this evaluation it should also be considered, how long they have stayed in Denmark and which ties they have formed to danish society. After 5 month the wife of the british writer find a job in a danish supermarket, and the cupple stays and live from her income. If she later becore unemployed, then example 1 and 2 applies.

Example 4: A german citizen move to the south of Jylland but continue to work for a company in the north of Germany. After 3 month he is layed of and apply for social benefit in Denmark. An evaluation by danish authorities show, that he only had this job for 5 month all in all, and that in the past he received social benefit for lengthy periods of time in Germany. He is therefore considered likely to become an unreasonable burden for the social system in Denmark, if he is allowed to stay, and is therefore expelled.

………………….

All these examples relate to primary free movement i.e. a citizen from an EU-country moving to another EU-country with or without his spouse.

Then there is the situation of secondary free movement. And here it is actually important, if the EU-citizen worked in the other EU-country or not. If the EU-citizen worked in the other country, then as a consequence of the ruling of the EU-court in the Eind-case in 2007, no demand of selvsuffiency can be made upon his return.

Example 5: A danish citizen live and work for 3 month in Sweden together with his spouse from Russia. They then move to Denmark, where his russian spouse is granted a residence card. The russian spouse can only be expelled, if she is a danger to public health or safety. The cupple is completely free to use the social system like anyone else.

If the danish citizen lived in Sweden as a border worker i.e. worked in Danmark, then example 3 and 4 apply after his return to Denmark with his russian spouse.

fundiver199
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af fundiver199 » 27.11.2010 11:16:39

As a final remark, Kim might be right, that the interpretation by danish authorities in exemple 3 and 4 is unreasonable strict. So you are definitly better secured, if you fall under example 1, 2 or 5, since the rules here do not involve any kind of interpretation.

outoforbit
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af outoforbit » 27.11.2010 11:33:34

Hi Fundiver,

Amazing info. Thanks for the extra input.

As I have understood, then my friend and I have different results:

1) My danish spouse worked for 1 year in Berlin full-time. When we came to Denmark, she quickly secured a new job full-time and works uninterruptedly since our entry to Denmark. Again, hypothetically speaking, should she lose her job and I can't find one, we could BOTH ask for social financial assistance while we actively search for new jobs?

- This is what I understand as example 5.

2) My friend and his danish spouse were both studying in another EU country. They enter Denmark, danish national is currently working while my friend is not. They have a child. Since they can't be a "burden" to the state, my friend can in NO WAY receive social financial help will he looks for a job?

- This is what I understand as "unreasonable burden", even 1 month of social benefit will be deemed "unreasonable burden"?

Kim P. Nyberg
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Re: Debate on Welfare

Indlæg af Kim P. Nyberg » 27.11.2010 16:44:00

outoforbit,

The answer to your question #1 is: Yes. Actually in that situation, you are not obligated to search actively for a job. You are to be treated like any Dane in the very same situation.

The answer to question #2 depends if the student receive SU (educational social support) from Denmark or the host country. If the host country give the support, my guess is, that fundiver's example 5 is in charge.
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